From: "Ivan Nandor" Date: Wed Jun 21, 2000 6:37 pm Subject: On points... << Lon, 1- when you suggest to leave the Exit point needle in for some time (in E/E block clearing), will not this procedure act as sedation in some manner? Is there any intention to sedate the correspondent exit point, or is there some other mechanism implicit in this particular action? Lonny"s answer: Sometimes I leave the exit needle in for a while to open the point and disperss relative excess, I don't consider this a sedation as the needle is pointed in the direction of qi flow. Sometimes both needles are inserted and removed quickly. Ivan: OK. 2 - I understand Worsley's stand when he suggests not to needle H-2. He says: "...about 80% of the px correctly needled at this point will faint..." In the other hand you give a very precise description of the spirit of H-2. How shell one interpret this apparent conflict? Answer: Great question, now that I'm done laughing I'd say we can conclude that 80% of the patients JR needled with this point fainted. I've never had anyone faint after needling it (does that mean I'm needeling it wrong? (more laughter)). Ivan> LOL LOL LOL ...let me join you...nothing like a good laugh together to seal a solid friendship. One of the great things in humor is that it allows one to question openly without any sign of discomfort from the other part LOL Lon> Let me say I've often heard things attributed to JR from notes that go around. Remember, JR didn't write the notes, a student wrote the notes. I'd guess there is a 30% fidelity between student notes and what a teacher actually says. That's why some of us write books. Ivan> You mean, people write books to make things clear, to put in their own words the facts as they are - to the writer himself. Yes I agree. In his last book - that was under preparation for several years, before printing - "The Five Elements and Officials - vol III " written and published in hard cover by J.R. Worsley himself in 1998... with revisions by himself and J.B. Worsley (his son?)... on page 12.11 bottom, it reads: "We have to be this careful; some of the points, like Blue Green Spirit, which is absolutely forbidden to use, are so powerful that 90% of our patients will faint if this is needled, causing terrible and unnecessary chaos" Lon> I do expect some people to faint or get light headed when doing points like GB-37, GV-16, GB-20,21. This effect is predictable and due to wind leaving and I take it as a sign of effective treatment. Ivan> Thanks for the information. 3- Again... Worsley says that CV-17 is not to be needled. Why not? It seems such an important point... If you do needle it, do you do it perpendicular - how many fen?>> Answer: The only points I dont needle are the belly button and nipple. The Fen depth varies per person (I've seen ranges of one fen to an inch) Ivan> One inch at CV-17? Lon>...and I wouldn't reccomend that anyone needle it without being taught, in person, by an experienced teacher.